A warning to devs:
Me and a few others have a fear to bring up. The idea of Sacred Order vs Dominion is a Good vs Evil trope is so bad it sets a bad ffoundation for any game and it will fall apart.
Take marvel movies as an example, the best movies where endgame, why? Because Thanos where the perfect villain. He had good intention and nuance. This is important.
Should Demons just be baddies? Or could it be that they uphold a balance between light and shadow, thier hatred for humans are because they where "Favored by the gods" and so demons try to do thier unwanted job and try to redeem themselves. Alot like Lucifer, the father of all Evil. His "evil" comes from him loving his father and looking down on humans.
Should Orcs be mindless killers? Or could they be proud warriors who take no prisoners of war, favor silence over false words? Warriors who go thrugh a trail of combat in thier teens, the winners are rewarded a ceremonial blade and the loosers are forgotten. They could have arena battles and be a stoic people like spartans or the greek.
Should undead be "EAT BRAINS"? Or could they be the ultimate form of renegades whom in thier fight for freedom led them to seek freedom from death itself? Inteligent "race" off people seeking individualism.
Should humans be the "good people seeking justice"? Or could their fight for life sometimes lead to extremism and unjust actions?
Should dwarfs just be humand sidekicks that dig holes? Or could they be very intiligent yet short to tempered people who can be so greedy off thier metals they sometimes do bad things? Could it be that they, while seeking progress accidently make such dangerous weapons that they are ashamed of and seek to rectify?
Think about it? Do we want a good vs evil story AGAIN? Do we want the worn out trope that companies like blizzard have tried time and time again and failing to make a good story? Or should we make a world where we all have nuance with both good and evil sides and justification?
Last edited: 2022-09-23 16:09:19Just what were talking about and just what I've been commenting, and I will keep commenting even if it looks like spam.
Good vs Evil is just so basic, bad founding, it will make the game too restrictive for everything and you as devs will have to invent stuff just to try to make sense of all and it will end like Blizzard just trying to make sense of all the non sense stuff.
Orcs shouldn't be mindless muscle, Infernal Demons shouldn't be just soul eaters, Undead shouldn't be just evil humans.
Humans shouldn't be the Heroes and Protagonists, we humans can be very evil and destructive, Dwarves shouldn't be just human sidekicks, Elfs shouldn't be just nature lovers and BEARAN SHOULDN'T BE HUMANS PETS.
I'm sorry, I really wish the best for the game, that's why I'm pointing this.
Last edited: 2022-04-21 17:28:20I agree with you 100%. Furthermore, this is not only too simple but also boring. The perfect example is the SWTOR, in which if you were a sith, you simply could not escape from being bad; you could not even being machiavelic or something different, you had yo be bad, period. And the same if you were a jedi.
I think, indeed, one thing World of Warcraft did so good was breaking these stereotypes and nowadays many people really love horde and orcs or undeads. And that is so cool, because it makes that players who play with "the evil ones" do not feel they are bad, but they simply have other values or a particular story. From my point of view this is very important to expand lore and to make players love the faction they play and keeping them playing the game.
Just what were talking about and just what I've been commenting, and I will keep commenting even if it looks like spam.
Good vs Evil is just so basic, bad founding, it will make the game too restrictive for everything and you as devs will have to invent stuff just to try to make sense of all and it will end like Blizzard just trying to make sense of all the non sense stuff.
Orcs shouldn't be mindless muscle, Infernal Demons shouldn't be just soul eaters, Undead shouldn't be just evil humans.
Humans shouldn't be the Heroes and Protagonists, we humans can be very evil and destructive, Dwarves shouldn't be just human sidekicks, Elfs shouldn't be just nature lovers and BEARAN SHOULDN'T BE HUMANS PETS.
I'm sorry, I really wish the best for the game, that's why I'm pointing this.
They has to be a very unique storyline to make the game stand out, and not just to make it all about good versus evil.
Not sure what you dont like about my post. I tried to showcase in simple ways what I mean. But I am happy more people agree with my fear to make the game boring and generic.
An even better example is a scene in Lost Ark. Characters that we have been getting close to. Women and children we come to like, are slaughetered by the church for just being in a demon infested area and suspected of being tainted. When a priest and close friend of us find out about it his inner demon(he is part demon) get released and he kills his former comrades. Then join the demon to destroy the church.
Another good example is the scarlet crusade in wow. They are so hellbent on destroying the undead that they torture and kill inocent people they suspect. No proof, no rational thought. Religious celots that see nothing but evil around them.
About the bearan. When I heard shortly about them I just had one hope in mind.
The bearan is not friends with humans. They tolorate them and try to hinder them from invading and destroying nature and upset the nature spirits. This ofcrouse make them despise dwarfs that could be looking for scientific progress and industry. They are in a way keepers of balanse between human settling and the wild. So unlike Elves they dont just like nature, they are ready to irradicate humans if they overstep and risk destroying nature. This could make for some intresting story development.
I can say i agree that simple good vs evil wont be interesting for long.
One thing i do want to add though that even in factions and races there can exist groups that dont agree with the general accepted ideas.
You can have a human group whose ideal is to exterminate all undead in spite some undead not being "evil" ( scarlet crusade ).
You can have Garrosh type orc who value nothing but strength yet orc race can have different set of ideals.
And So on :)
Ps: i trust storywriter will bring us interesting and compeling story
Pps: one of the reasons why i believe this is because we have been asked which values and beliefs each race holds in high regard
Last edited: 2022-09-10 11:43:10I would have done it differently and distanced Dominate from an evil faction. Leaving the infernals and undeads only as enemies of the scenario (Differing from WoW, forsaken should have model of all races and they ignore this fact the lore may have started like this Lordaeron, but so many other races that have died and are part of them ). Bringing in goblins to rival the dwarves. Ogre rivals humans (WoW players have been asking for playable ogres for a long time and it never came and would attract players to SoH) Orc rivals from elves. Later I would like to see other playable races: fish men, crustacean men, bird men, insect men, frog men, snake men... (Again, something WoW hasn't done yet. I loved what they did with the elves of setting and the blending of runes on draenei foreheads). Another thing is the combinations of race and class (they should be rethought and balance fac x fac gronthar can only be 4). Ex doesn't make sense undead being priest (healing spells should damage undead, as it is in tabletop rpg fantasy) and can't be assassin? It would bring + two classes totaling 12. Bard (magic user) and Monk (heal user). Getting 3 rules: physics rule: warriors, pirates, ranger, assassin... magic rule: mage, witch, necro, bard... heal rule: priest, druid, paladin, monk... Later fitting new classes into these rules.
Seems like you have a lot of self-doubt, and you ridiculously try to harass other people that share great ideas, because you can't come up with great, profound and well detailed ideas, so you always post the same stupid and sarcastic comment "Seems like you can start your own game". You can disagree with anyone you want, there's no reason to harass them if they don't give you a reason, tho.
Grow up child. Report me if you want.
Last edited: 2022-09-13 01:13:40I would have done it differently and distanced Dominate from an evil faction. Leaving the infernals and undeads only as enemies of the scenario (Differing from WoW, forsaken should have model of all races and they ignore this fact the lore may have started like this Lordaeron, but so many other races that have died and are part of them ). Bringing in goblins to rival the dwarves. Ogre rivals humans (WoW players have been asking for playable ogres for a long time and it never came and would attract players to SoH) Orc rivals from elves. Later I would like to see other playable races: fish men, crustacean men, bird men, insect men, frog men, snake men... (Again, something WoW hasn't done yet. I loved what they did with the elves of setting and the blending of runes on draenei foreheads). Another thing is the combinations of race and class (they should be rethought and balance fac x fac gronthar can only be 4). Ex doesn't make sense undead being priest (healing spells should damage undead, as it is in tabletop rpg fantasy) and can't be assassin? It would bring + two classes totaling 12. Bard (magic user) and Monk (heal user). Getting 3 rules: physics rule: warriors, pirates, ranger, assassin... magic rule: mage, witch, necro, bard... heal rule: priest, druid, paladin, monk... Later fitting new classes into these rules.
I agree with you about Undead and Demons being too "evil" for being a playable race. But I really would like to play any class with any race (it seems like that isn't going to be the case for the game). I already suggested:
Changing their Lore to make them less "antagonists". Already suggested like 4 pages of a more complex lore for these Undead and Demons, so they can be priests and less "evil".
We have to wait for next weekly updates to see how it's going.
Not sure what you dont like about my post. I tried to showcase in simple ways what I mean. But I am happy more people agree with my fear to make the game boring and generic.
An even better example is a scene in Lost Ark. Characters that we have been getting close to. Women and children we come to like, are slaughetered by the church for just being in a demon infested area and suspected of being tainted. When a priest and close friend of us find out about it his inner demon(he is part demon) get released and he kills his former comrades. Then join the demon to destroy the church.
Another good example is the scarlet crusade in wow. They are so hellbent on destroying the undead that they torture and kill inocent people they suspect. No proof, no rational thought. Religious celots that see nothing but evil around them.
About the bearan. When I heard shortly about them I just had one hope in mind.
The bearan is not friends with humans. They tolorate them and try to hinder them from invading and destroying nature and upset the nature spirits. This ofcrouse make them despise dwarfs that could be looking for scientific progress and industry. They are in a way keepers of balanse between human settling and the wild. So unlike Elves they dont just like nature, they are ready to irradicate humans if they overstep and risk destroying nature. This could make for some intresting story development.
Keep in mind that in the old days, when witch hunts happened, many innocent women were drowned, burned alive, etc.
The church didn't need much to say that a woman is a witch and therefore kill her.
Also think about the Crusades of the Church, again same stuff, fanatic religious army killing in the name of the church.
These are real historical examples, not just fantasy written lore. I don't see anything bad in that unless the whole game is based on that, not a problem to have a group of religious fanatics, or devil worshipers, or different groups. It is part of history :)